We recently received the following email:
My wife and I love one another and love the Lord, and want a fulfilling love life that’s pleasing to ourselves and to Him. With so little info we’ve struggled with what is OK sexually within our marriage. Particularly with respect to anal sex, your site indicates that the scripture does not speak to this between a married man and woman. If I look up “sodomy” in the dictionary it appears to address all anal intercourse, regardless of whether man/man or man/woman. When the scripture talks about sodomy, how do we know whether it limiting to man/man or extends to man/woman? any input on this area would be greatly appreciated!
What a great question and we knew just the person to ask when the CN spice girls and I said “If only we knew of a pastor who had deep Biblical understanding regarding this question.” Sugar & Spice’s husband! So rather than attempt to answer it ourselves, I asked him if he would be so kind as to lend us his knowledge on this topic. To our delight he said yes and having already done an in depth Biblical study on this, he offered us the results of his study for this article. Our thanks to him for his lending us his expertise. Here are his findings:
Abraham was camped near an oak grove when three men appeared to him in Genesis 18. One of the men was God who stayed with Abraham while the two other men (“angels” according to Gen 19:1) proceeded to Sodom. In Sodom they met Lot who prepared them a meal at his home. That evening the men of Sodom surrounded the house and wanted Lot to bring out the men in the house so they could have sex with them. Lot refused and the men were struck blind by the angels. Then the angels told Lot that they needed to escape because God was going to destroy Sodom.
This is our knowledge of Sodom and the picture we see is a group of homosexuals trying to rape two men. It is believed by many that since homosexual men engage in anal sex then anal sex must be a sin. However, there is no Biblical evidence to back up this claim that anal sex between a married heterosexual couple is wrong. Many people feel that the Bible condemns sodomy but it does not. The word “sodomy” doesn’t even appear in scripture. Sodomy is a legal term that varies from state to state but typically includes legally forbidden acts such as anal sex, oral sex, and bestiality.
What were the sins of Sodom? Certainly homosexuality was one of them by looking at the whole council of scripture (Romans 1:26-27) but what else does the Bible say about Sodom and its sin?
Ezekiel 16:48-50
“As I live,” declares the Lord God, “Sodom, your sister and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it.”
From Genesis we see that homosexuality was a sin of Sodom but according to the above passage, there was much more to the story. It seems that their sexual perversion was one of many sins. God destroyed Sodom because:
- Arrogance
- Abundant food and careless ease
- Not assisting the poor and needy
So how are we to define sodomy biblically? If Sodom was guilty of the above sins as scripture teaches, then a Sodomite could be defined as anyone who doesn’t help someone in need and is arrogant. If you have plenty but your neighbor does not and you fail to act, you are also committing sodomy!
So to the question: “Is sodomy a sin?” According to the Bible verses stated above, the acts of the people of Sodom were indeed sinful and we too would be sinning if we behaved in the same manner. But, is anal sex between a man and wife equivalent to today’s standard definition of sodomy? I would have to say, according to the Bible, no. It is true that homosexual men engage in anal sex but it is also true that they engage in oral sex. They also hold hands and kiss one another. Does the fact that a homosexual does these things too mean that heterosexuals are forbidden to do these acts as well? It most certainly does not. I believe that God created our desires and it is we who have perverted it. God gave sex to us as a gift for a husband and a wife to share and it is we who have perverted that. Homosexual sex was stolen from heterosexuals, not the other way around. We can conclude that anal sex or any sex by a homosexual is sin. We can also conclude that according to the Bible anal sex, oral sex, or any sex by an unmarried heterosexual couple is sin too. But if you are married and both partners agree to any sex act within the confines of your marriage bed, it is indeed pure.
I hope this clarifies for you the question of what sodomy refers to. You can view further information regarding anal sex according to our world view in the category listing on the right side of every page.
37 Comments
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Christian Nymphos 
Great article! I’ve never seen it summed up so well. Good job!
I agree, very good article. I love how the Word explains the Word so well!
Whew! Always glad to see some of my favorite marital activities are all good in my marriage bed!!! I’m sure my DH will appreciate it tonight also!
To our readers: we welcome people to share differences of opinion, but be sure to speak respectfully without attacking the character of someone who has come to a different conclusion on an issue that is not overtly discussed in Scripture. If you are opposed to anal sex, feel free to share why. If you support people to engage in anal sex if they wish to, feel free to share why. I just encourage you to debate respectfully. Thanks.
Hello all,
Cinnamonsticks, I support your stand for the freedom to be who we believe we can be in our own marriage bed.
I read what bobo has to say and also advise caution towards a cooled down response regarding what we agree with and do not agree with or what may or may not be feasable in our private bedrooms.
If we cave to a religious framework of how to live our lives…notice I used the word ‘religious’ and not Christian….where do we draw the line.
After many years of religiosity influencing every aspect of my life, I have finally been able to NOT throw the baby out with the bath water. In other words, I have maintained my delightfully rich relationship with my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ but have had the courage to remove religious shackles from my ankles and wrists.
Why the issue of our sexual freedoms, in our very own marriage beds, creates such a furor is witness itself to the binding nature of religious conformity.
I have chosen to run from all manner of religion like it is the plague and in doing so, have been amazed to learn of sincere Christians on this site who do honor God, do adore and honor their spouses, plus do strive to place others more highly than themselves.
Please think carefully outside of the box of your religious mindset before attacking what we are free to be.
I will not even lower myself to the level of having to justify whether my darling and I agree or don’t agree upon the issue of anal sex. Who gives a rip.
We are allowed the freedom to do what we believe is appropriate for our marriage which is honorable before our God and incredibly blessed on all fronts.
This site is a marvelously judgment free zone and I thank the moderators as they strive to keep it that way. Hats off to you all, ladies.
smokeypuss.
Something else to consider aside from the passage that describe Sodom is the biblical prohibition against homosexual sex. Leviticus 20:13 says, “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.” And Leviticus 18:22 says, “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.” Men cannot lie with one another as a man and woman lie with one another since men lack vaginas. They can only approximate the act of vaginal intercourse by having anal sex. A literally reading of the passage expressly condones anal intercourse between a man and a woman because that is only way that a man can lie with a man as a man lies with a woman. However, even if it we read the passage figuratively, it only makes the interpretation ambiguous; it doesn’t condemn anal sex between a man and a woman. Also, you will find nowhere in scripture a passage that says, “You shall not lie with a female as with a man; it is an abomination.” It seems clear to me that in order to insist that anal sex in the marriage bed is a sin, men must make pronouncements on an issue where scripture is at worst silent and at best tacitly permissive.
Also to tag on to something that Sugar and Spice’s husband mentioned, but I think failed to tie together, yes Ezekiel’s text does list the three bulleted items as Sodom’s sins, but it also mentions that they committed abominations. Given that Leviticus 18:22, specifically calls homosexual sex an abomination, I don’t think it’s a stretch to consider the abomination mentioned as including homosexual sex as the Genesis text indicates.
1 in Awe!
Very interesting. So the Bible doesn’t even mention sodomy in scripture? It only discusses the story of the destruction of Sodom and the sins of Sodom. Frankly, I’m surprised, but it just goes to show that the first and best place to look for answers is in scripture!! Thanks for taking the time to answer this question thoroughly. Obviously, not all will agree, but I appreciate being led to scripture.
Wow a very heated debate and I think that 1inawe (along with Surgar and Spices hubby) hit the nail right on the head. This is a subject that my husband would really like to inncorporate into our sex lives. We have a couple of times but due to some baggage from the way I was raised, I have hold ups about it. I want to be free enough to offer it but something still holds me back, I have been looking for signs to say it is okay and I think I might find some freedom here! Thank You
The issue of ok/not ok would seem to be a much less important one than is this healthy or not. I have worked with a lot of kids who have tried anal stuff. The health repurcussions are far greater than is it ok/not ok.
Anal intercourse risks damaging anus, colon muscles in some cases causes severe infections. Not to mention it can also damage tailbones if not done extreemly cautiosly.
By all means enjoy your spouse to what ever ends your creativity supplies, but be very careful about using exits for entrances as the messy collisions can be horrifing to clean up after.
I feel we need to go back to when God created man and woman. I would suggest that before sin, Adam and Eve enjoyed each other in every way imaginable as they discovered their bodies and how they could make each other feel in an atmosphere without shame or inhibition in God’s perfect created world. Furthermore, everything He created was good, which includes their bodies were created as perfect compliments to each other and designed anatomically perfect for anything they wanted to do (vaginal, anal, oral, etc.) If anal was something God did not want us to engage in, he could have created the anal opening so a penis could not enter it. The only instruction to them was not to eat the fruit from the one tree. Without sin, I would also suggest that their communication skills, openness, emotional bonding and trust with each other would be unselfish (without sin). This promotes the idea that they would willing give of themselves for their mutual enjoyment/sexual fulfillment. Every pleasure in marriage of a man and woman would be in God’s perfect design so that man and woman would have no desire to defile the marriage bed by looking outside of each other for fulfillment. All their needs and desires would be perfectly satisfied by the two becoming one flesh.
Let’s look at the discussion around the term sodomy as being synonymous with anal sex. I propose that anal sex is not what God was reacting to at Sodom and Gomorrah. He was appalled at the condition of Sodom, which included, but was not limited to men having their needs or desires fulfilled outside His ordained marriage between a man and woman. This is the unnatural condition that Sodom was known for, not the anal sex act, as 1inawe mentioned above.
So going back to the debate if God permits anal sex in a Christian marriage… I propose that anal sex was perfectly designed by God in the marriage and that every desire of both partners should be not only permissible but is commanded when God said for us to submit unto each other. This level of commitment and submission to our partner leaves us with no desires unfulfilled within the covenant marriage built on trust and commitment. I feel that’s why God detests homosexuality. It’s not the act of anal sex, but that everything was already perfectly designed with in his planned marriage relationship of a man and woman, which includes anal sex. So going outside a marriage is pure selfish sinful sexual fulfillment, especially in a marriage where the partners submit unto each others desires. Yes, this means that we may be doing things that we don’t always feel like doing. I personally love performing cunnilingus, but I have an extreme case of TMJ and performing cunnilingus exasperates the condition to where I can’t open my jaw more than 1/2 and inch for about 12-hours or so after. I still do it for my wife because I love seeing what pleasure I can give her, and this supersedes the temporary disability it causes me. Likewise, my wife has issues where she has never had a vaginal orgasm, so we experimented with anal sex early in our relationship and still mutually enjoy it. She has regular orgasms from anal sex. Furthermore, the bond and trust that was built during our first tries at anal, really have built milestones of trust in our relationship as we worked out how to make it pleasureable for both of us. If we had not tried anal she would had been limited to my occasional cunnilingus or fingering her to orgasm. I thank God for the gift of anal for her sake.
To ravenwolfe76 comment on the risks. It sound like “kids” were watching too much porn where the pros make it look easy. It takes great care and lots of lube to insure comfort and pleasure instead of pain and damage from reckless kids. I feel that with good communication and trust she can relax and enjoy a gift from God without fear of damage. Fot us the more frequent we engage in anal, the easier it is for my wife to be in tune with her body and truly enjoy the act to orgasm.
I’ve been reading about this subject here on this site and have been genuinely surprised by folks saying there is no outright forbiddance from the Bible on heterosexual married anal sex.
First let me say that the Bible does not overtly prohibit S&M, Cocaine, Extacy, Crystal Meth, self cutting, etc… yet by instinct and respect for our God created bodies most true Christians shun such physical poisins.
Aside from the physiological aspects of the anus not self lubricating or pre-cleaning like the vagina and penis do in preparation for sex there is the symbolic nature of anal sex. Even with all of the the preparation and cleaning and lubrication required to participate in anal sex the risk of damage still exists.
Symbolically can we think of God the giver of Eternal Life smiling upon us when using the part of our bodies meant for evacuating that which is dead (anus) to deposit the seed of life (sperm) in an act that in spirit violates the injunction to “multiply and replentish the earth”? I know that all sex does not result in children nor would that be a wise choice for everyone. Sexual oneness as indicated in the Bible should probably bring life both spiritually and literally. Anal sex only imitates the life giving sex God made man and woman for. With all of the physical preparations in the man and woman’s bodies one could reasonably reach the conclusion that anal sex mocks vaginal sex and is dead.
Also, reading the NT one might see an indication of what lusting with women might be according to God. Exchanging “Natural” relations for unnatural ones could easily be considered right on this topic. Just because anal sex is not mentioned just looking at the natural way men and women’s bodies prepare for sex might be sufficient to differentiate between natural and unnatural, lust and love.
Romans 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
In the creation the first time we hear of Adam “laying” with Eve and her getting pregnant is AFTER they eat the fruit not before. I cannot say for sure but their time in the Garden of Eden appears to have been in a state of innocence or NOT knowing right from wrong or not having children which would possibly indicate no sex.
Either way, as enticing as anal sex seems it doesn’t, to me, seem clean or in keeping with the example of the life giving love that Jesus teaches. Satan is the great liar and counterfeiter. God teaches love, Satan teaches lust. I believe that even in a Christian bed men and women can fall victims to lust. Just because one spouse asks for a specific act does not mean the other must work up to being okay with it just because they asked. Sometimes we need to look inside ourselves and see if we are becoming too much of the world while hoping we are not.
your brother in Christ
Those are all fine arguments and for sure if that is the conviction that God has lead you to, you should remain in that, but the truth still remains that for a different couple, the scriptures you quoted to support your arguments are not even remotely close to convincing that your perspective is God’s. In a loving, godly marriage it is possible for the couple to prayerfully seek God and have Him free them to incorporate anal sex.
Justafollower,
If I had read your post a few months ago, I would have had to listen to your opinions about anal sex. I had not grown in giving my body entirely to my darling husband, for his enjoyment.
I respect the fact that you have a strong opinion about this aspect of Christian sexuality.
However, I ask that you equally respect our choices to fully embrace our lust for our husbands and our desire for them to lust after us.
I would hazard a guess that we Christian Nymphos are grateful for the safety we bask in as we know we are not disrespected in the slightest as we fully make passionate love to our men.
If more Godly females lusted after their husbands, I believe we would visibly see marriages mending by the score.
I will not stop lusting after my husband and I will allow myself to fall deeper in love with him as we grow in our sexual relationship. For 23 years, I allowed myself to be bound by religiousity and I AM DONE.
God is welcomed into our love making times and I rejoice that He can finally smile at how deliciously ‘together’ my man and I are.
To prevent this from becoming a huge wall of text, I’m only going to respond to a couple portions of your original post.
I strongly disagree with the idea that God teaches only love, and the devil only lust. In my opinion this viewpoint is not only wrong but in fact quite dangerous. Precious little in life or faith is black and white. It could be that I misunderstand you, but do you believe that the devil is only capable of teaching things that are dark and disgusting? You would be incorrect. Satan can absolutely teach and promote love and any other thing you deem to be good or pure, that is his game. It’s even written that he represents himself as an “angel of light.” The difference is that he only does so as the means to a wicked end, whereas God guides us for our own well being. Another point to keep in mind is that he (the devil) attempts to lead humans astray by depicting a God-fearing lifestyle as painfully restrictive and guilt-ridden. Don’t you think we should be doing our best to dispel the harmful myths that he’s created?
I also disagree with your opinion that anal sex runs counter to the command to “multiply and replenish the earth” and there are several reasons why I object to this line of thinking in general:
The first reason is that by the same logic, any kind of sexual activity that would not result in conception is wrong. Oral sex is a sin, mutual masturbation is a sin, even vaginal intercourse becomes a sin if the couple is sterile. Is it also a sin to have sex with your already pregnant wife? You acknowledge that all sex does not (and in many cases, should not) result in children but condemn it in the very same breath.
Secondly, anal sex and procreative sex are not mutually exclusive. Most alternate forms of sexual stimulation do not render us sterile, so while anal may be “dead” in your mind, enjoying it in no way prevents a couple from having the life-giving intercourse that you hold in such high esteem.
Finally, the commandment you quoted was issued at the dawn of human history. The earth no longer needs to be filled. With a world population of some 6.7 billion and soaring, the earth is FULL. Our blind, rampant growth as a species has already been the end of many of His beloved creations. Do you really believe that an intelligent, loving creator would want or expect us to breed ourselves into ecological collapse? Surely not.
Just a reminder that our blog is not the place for extensive debate “quiver full” arguments. If God leads a couple to have many children and refrain from birth control, we bless them in there obedience to that. And if God has freed a couple to have fewer children and utilize birth control, we bless that too.
I’m responding to only one paragraph in Justafollower’s post, since it is both a moral and a theological issue that has shaped the attitudes of millions of Christians regarding sex for more than 1,500 years, and has made Christianity the laughingstock of the world and has given millions of young people ungodly hangups about married sex. You state that the “first time we hear of Adam ‘laying’ with Eve is AFTER they eat the fruit,” citing Genesis 4:1when Adam got Eve pregnant with Cain. You take this to mean that would “possibly indicate no sex” in their “innocence” in Eden.
First, Augustine at one time believed that God intended Adam and Eve to breed by cross-pollination. Augustine got this notion from Greek Gnosticism, which held that flesh is evil and spirit is good. This unbiblical notion has wrought untold misery on married Christians trying to enjoy wholesome Christian sex, and it is, from what I’ve read in this blog, in large measure what Christian Nymphos is all about–to ditch the anti-sex attitude of Medieval monks and return to the Bible.
Genesis 1:27-28 is the basis of normal, Bible-based sexual behavior: “God created man in his own image . . . male and female . . . blessed them and said, Be fruitful and multiply.” IOW, enjoy sex in your naked splendor in Eden; do it often and delight yourself in it. Find yourself a bed of moss beside a quiet stream (Eden’s mosquitoes didn’t bite) and make love in the moonlight. Etc.
How long did this go on before the Fall? Nary a clue in the Bible. A week? A year? A 100 years, maybe? One of the results of the Fall was that Eve’s conception was to be “multiplied” Genesis 3:16. Did her periods increase from maybe one a year (or every seven years?) to once every 28 days after the Fall. We simply don’t know.
Another possibility was that Eve had babies born in Eden. But they’d have had to have been girls, who later gave birth to sinful children, after marrying and becoming pregnant by husbands who were sinning. Again, the Bible is silent.
Mysterylover
Hmmmm Justafollower….. LUST is a DEADLY sin and that is SCRIPTUAL. Therfore one should be bringing LOVE and NOT LUST into the marraige bed.
Boned dragon…… the bible clearly states that life IS BLACK and WHITE when dealing with following Jesus and it is like the difference between DAY and NIGHT, also SCIPTUAL.
All i can say in conclusion (as my wife and i both enjoy anal sex) is rely only on chapter and verse when dealing with the CORRECT answer to any question for a christian life. The bible says “work out YOUR salvation with fear and trembling” so dont just be content with other peoples opinions in the matter, make your actions dependant on a chapter and verse from the bible as then HOW can you go wrong.
Yes this means medatating on the words…. also SCRIPTUAL. I know i havnt givin an answer but that does not mean there is not one as we who READ the bible know there is ALWAYS a CORRECT answer.
to justafollower: thank you for your response. I feel it was the most compelling and well-spoken one in this discussion. I don’t see how it is so easy to justify this because it is left out of scripture and it is within the marital blessings. Many things are left out of scripture that would be a sin, or non-acceptable to God. I don’t know if anal sex is a sin to Him, but it certainly is not how He created our bodies to perform. We can justify anything we want by claiming that it is okay in the bed of marriage, but as you mentioned, “even in a Christian bed men and women can fall victims to lust” and I believe that every person should be true to themselves and make sure they are not satisfying a spouse’s lust at their own expense of their own comfort. I’m not going to be made to feel that I must do everything my husband fantasizes about to keep him from straying outside our marriage.
p.s. ladies…I have done it, and if you’re not careful about the order in which you proceed, it leads to an STD! Kinda leaves me wanting less. Oh well…I guess that’s why this site is a blessing. Hopefully others learn before engaging.
Yes, we have said it before, but indeed the penis should not be inserted into the vagina after being in the anus unless the man has washed.
My husband has shown me the article, to open up my horizon, I suppose. Honestly, I am troubled by your article.
Ephesians 5:22-29
22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church
My husband enjoys anal sex. But I don’t. Much as I want to submit my body to him, I am not enjoying it. I
I have no qualms giving him a hand job or blow job and we have sex at least 5 times a week. Isn’t it good enough? It makes me feel that what I am doing is not good enough for him, and my body is not pleasing enough for him.
I’m so sorry that your husband is pressuring you like that. Even in marriage, no act should be an option unless both the husband and the wife agree too it, and it grieves me when I hear of husbands pressuring their wives to do things that they are uncomfortable with.
While we do not see any scriptural evidence that prohibits anal sex in marriage, we in no way are saying that this is to be a standard practice in every marriage. This article was intended to show that the scriptural references to sodomy are far deeper than we have understood, and NOT to provide a means for husbands to coerce their wives into participating in anal sex with them. I am sorry for how our message was misused against you.
I hope you can stick around our blog and find the support that you need.
Faithfulwife Hello =)
Yes wives are supposed to submit to there husbands and husbands are supposed to love their wives as much as his OWN body. So you feel guilt because you know that by scripture you are not fulfilling your obligation, that is not bad as you actually have a good sense of whats right and wrong by GOD, Im not sure if your Husband fulfills his obligations to you set out by the LORD. However your walk in the life of a christian is your own and you are accountable for your actions only, you need to be sure you are being all you can be to GOD. Sometimes we do things we dont enjoy for money we dont like it but we do it, if we do things we dont enjoy out of love for our partners and more importantly for GOD then are we not being true christians and righteous?
I’m confused. Are you saying that you think we have to feel like doing everything in our Christian life and marriage in order for it to be acceptable and true? I think the opposite is true. It’s the sacrifice of praise that God wants from us. A praise that costs us something, and some times that sacrifice is our feelings. Our feelings and preferences are moved by our circumstances, but what we know in faith in the midst of things that we don’t enjoy, that is what reflects our deepest convictions and devotions.
I believe that in the marriage bed the couple will sometimes do things for the other that they wouldn’t choose for themselves, but it should never be coerced.
This is a refreshing take on “Sodomy”! However, anytime I’ve had an argument over the “gay” issue and, thus, return to scripture for clarity, I’m deeply bothered by what Lot offers these men instead:
Genesis 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
Does this mean that it is more favorable in God’s eyes for two young virgins to be “defiled” than for two grown men? Why?
Lot’s mind was twisted from the combination of his own sinful nature, and his contact through living, for many years, in the city of Sodom. It seems that he saw caring for guests, and protecting them from homosexual assault to be a higher priority than protecting his daughters from a heterosexual group rape.
Just because the Bible straightforwardly tells what someone said or did does NOT mean that the Bible says what they did or thought or said was RIGHT. (And in many other places, it does say that either act would have been wrong, an abomination to God.)
You must stop thinking with a modern mind. In old testiment times women were less than equal and could be bought and sold and the two men I believe were messengers from GOD. Right or wrong thats the way it was.
I agree with Tiger Girl. You need to read Lot’s story, not necessarily just that small section. Look at Lot and his descisions, he may not have been turned to stone like his wife, but he certainly was not the most upstanding guy. God did not tell Lot to offer his daughters, he decided for himself that it would be better, perhaps out of fear because his home was surrounded. Notice in the chapter how the angels that were staying with him had to “take him, his wife and his daughters by the hand” because Lot and his family were lingering and not leaving the city when the angels told them to? Lot also complains about where the angels tell them to escape to. Then later his two daughters get him drunk and seduce him to “preserve the lineage of their father.” notice it says that it was the daughter’s idea, not God’s. How sad what happens when we leave God out of our decisions.
I totaly disagree with your assesement of Lot. In Genisis 18:16-33 Abraham pleads with GOD to spare the righteous in Sodom and Gomorah . The definition of Righteous is “doing what is right, having virtue. The definition of Virtue is “general moral excellence, right action and thinking, goodness or morality. Since God himself Judged Lot and his daughters to be righteous and spared them from the distruction of the cities of the plain one can only conclude Lot made the correct dicision in offering his daughters instead of the two men who he had recognized at the city gates as messengers from GOD.
The offering of ones children as a sacrifice to/for GOD as Abraham did with Isaac in Genisis 22 would be the ultimate act of faith for all of us as parents. Thankfully we have a GOD of mercy and grace that does not condemn the innocent. In both cases the innocent children were spared.
On this point I’m not 100% sure and I hope someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but incest dosen’t become wrong or a sin until Moses hands down the LAW in Leviticus 18. You can’t judge Lot with a modern mind or modern morales. This was a time before the Law, a time when women and children were a mans property.
I agree with you as to who God had spared. But no matter how righteous they may have been, they were still sinners. I guess I was just trying to point out that Lot’s decisions and that of his daughters weren’t necessarily led by God. Sadly even some very upstanding people in the Bible made very terrible decisions when they chose to do what they thought was right. Take for example king David. What a wonderful servant of God, but even he made a sad mistake with Bathsheba. How great that our God is amazing and even used that situation for good with his work through Solomon.
My point with Lot and his daughters was that no where does it say that GOD told them to do what they did. God DID tell Abraham to offer Isaac.
Are you sure they were sinners? In Genisis 8 we find where Noah found favor with GOD because he was a Righteous man without fault. Was Noah a sinner or did his sinless state save him and his entire family. Remeber being sinless was alot easier then. God walked among them and they only had to obey his direct commands. The only commands given to Noah and his descendants were to not eat meat with its life blood still in it, not to kill another “man”, and to be fruitful and multiply. This was a time before the LAW was given through Moses. David acted outside the law and knew he was sinning with Bathsheba. Lot only had to obey these three commands or the direct personal commands from GOD to be found Righteous and without fault and thus save his entire family as Noah had.
I will agree with you that GOD didn’t tell Lot to offer his daughters as sacrifice, but had it been sinful Lot would have perished with the rest. Being raised in the modern world we as women find it hard to accept that women in the old testiment weren’t treated as equals, but more like livestock. Glad things Changed.
I truly don’t want to make this a big argument with a fellow sister in Christ, so I’ll make this my last post on this subject.
In answer to your question, Yes, I am sure they were sinners.
Romans 5:12-14 tells us “modern thinkers” …
“12Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because ALL SINNED- 13 FOR UNTIL THE LAW SIN WAS IN THE WORLD, BUT SIN IS NOT IMPUTED WHEN THERE IS NO LAW. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam,…”
So, no, Lot was not “held accountable, or charged with his sin”, because there was no law yet, but yes, he WAS a sinner and he did sin.
Genesis 8:21 also tells us,
“…Then the Lord said in His heart, ‘I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth…’ ”
Just because a man was righteous in God’s eyes does not mean he was SINLESS. In Genesis12: vs. 10-20 Abram (the same guy who asks God to spare the righteous) and his wife go to Egypt. Abram is afraid that the Egyptians will kill him because of his wife and her beauty, so he tells her to lie and say she is his sister. (God did not tell him to do this, he was acting on fear, not trusting his God) Verse 17 tells us that God plagues Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of what Abram and Sarai did. Pharaoh then has them sent out of Egypt.
Even a righteous man like Abram, when deciding on his own without trusting God, made a very bad decision in lying about his wife and making her lie.
These people before the law may not have KNOWN that what they did was considered a “sin.” Romans 3:20 tells us, “…for by the law is the KNOWLEDGE of sin.”
But yes, because of Adam’s transgression, we are ALL sinners.
Thank God we now are sinners saved by His marvelous grace!
i tried it a few times and wasnt feeling it at all anyway. uh uh. dh says he didn’t care one way or the other just wants to please me
Sister, I have prayed long and hard on how to respond. Please don’t view this as an argument. This is how we grow in faith and understanding of the Word, iron sharpens iron.
Romans 5:12-14 (New International Version)
Death through Adam, Life through Christ
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
I will agree with “because all sinned” (past tense), this is what makes us mortal and limits our days. This verse proves my point that before the Law was written, sinful acts by “modern thinking” were not sinful until God commanded them so. Was Lot guilty of original sin through Adam? YES. To say Lot was a sinner (present tense) and sinned against God (broke his commands) is only speculation when scripture does not state it so.
Genesis 8:21 (New International Version)
21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though [a] every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
I’m not sure why this was included in our conversation. Do all men have evil thoughts? YES. Once again, evil thoughts and desires do not become sinful until God commands them as so in the New Testament through His son Jesus.
Romans 3:20 (New International Version)
20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Here again you apply “modern thinking” to pre-Law scripture. Lot and Abram were not righteous because they observed the law, because there was no Law. God himself credits Abram as righteous because he believed and obeyed what God told him.
Romans 4:3 (New International Version)
3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Genesis 15:6 (New International Version)
6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
Would God really declare Abram as righteous if being married to his sister Sarai was a sin? No, because being married to your sister doesn’t become sin till after the Law is given to Moses
Genesis 20:12 (New International Version)
12 Besides, she really is my sister, the daughter of my father though not of my mother; and she became my wife.
In closing I will suggest rereading Genesis 12. You will find no lies by Abram and Sarai. You will find Abram prospered greatly while in Egypt, not typical of a Hebrew living outside the will of God. It seems Pharaoh and his house were the only ones to receive punishment from God for any wrong doing. I’ve not been able to find anywhere in scripture where God punishes the victim of a sin committed by another. As always, if you can show me in scripture where I’m wrong without personal speculation I will stand corrected and be that much closer to understanding the Word.
Dear Sister, while I agree that iron sharpens iron, I fear that we will just keep “sharpening” each other if we do not end this debate. I still do not agree with you, and could go on and on, back and forth with you, but like I said in a previous comment, that was the last I would say on this matter. While I believe that this is a very important topic, I do not believe that either of us will benefit anymore by continuing to discuss it. I do not log on to the CN site to have big theological debates, but to be encouraged in my marriage and to offer encouragement to others if I can.
I believe that you love our dear Lord, as do I, and I’m so glad to see a fellow sister in Christ have such an interest in knowing His Word better. My prayer for both of us, is that we will grow in our zeal for the knowledge of the Lord’s Word, and that we will continue to be able to encourage each other in our marriages through this wonderful site.
Agreed. It’s funny how each of us see things differently. While many of us see this site as a wonderful resource to improve or marriages and walk with Christ, the vast majority of the religeous community see it as a challenge to established theology.
What an interesting topic. While I personally have not had anal sex #1 because I won’t be married for another 3 months and #2 dont think I will because every anally given medicine I’ve ever had makes my body want to expel it back out, I don’t see anything BIBLICALLY wrong.
All too often I see Christians becoming too much like the Pharisees, who Jesus scolded for their legalistic nature.
God is VERY clear on what is RIGHT and WRONG. Such as repentance, baptism, love, murder, homosexuality etc. We know He means business because they are in clear language and repeated many times.
In my opinion, God is unclear or silent on other things. Some include moderate drinking, instrumental music in worship (mentioned in the old testament, silent in the new.), head coverings for women, women remaining silent, anal sex, etc.
To repeat an above post, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”
Another view to consider is that the old testament which we are not bound by (do any of us make sacrifices after our monthly periods?) deals with outward sinful acts. However, the new testament deals with heart issues. For example, if you do not lust, there is no way you would commit adultry, and if you control your anger, you will never consider murder. Under this thought, I cannot see a wife wanting to please her husband and vice versa as being a wrong heart issue. If it is, DON’T do it! Again, work out your own salvation…
Rarely have I heard anyone mention the passage in Ezekiel brought out by the pastor in the original article. I have discussed the subject of the sins of Sodom with many people, and no one seems to want to admit that God destroyed those cities for reasons other than or in addition to homosexuality. However, the book of Ezekiel couldn’t be more clear as to why God was so upset with them. Thank you so much for being Biblical with this website!